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	<title>Comments on: Obligatory Class of 2013 Hall of Fame opinion piece</title>
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	<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352</link>
	<description>&#34;... the reason you win or lose is darn near always the same - pitching.”  -- Earl Weaver</description>
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		<title>By: Todd Boss</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7569</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Boss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 19:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352#comment-7569</guid>
		<description>The &quot;feeling of dominance&quot; is a very important one to me as well, and is the biggest reason I struggle with guys like Trammell and Biggio.  It just confirms to me that certain types of players need to be analyzed differently than others.  Middle Infielders just can&#039;t be compared to big hulking first-baseman power hitters in terms of production.   I think relief pitchers are given too much credit, but they have their place.  But you&#039;ve gotta be a darn good one (and Lee Smith was not).  Lastly if you&#039;re going to let in RPs you have to consider guys who DH&#039;d most of their career as well; you can&#039;t make one pro-specialist argument for closers but then say that DHs &quot;didn&#039;t play the field so they don&#039;t deserve as much credit.&quot;  

For me, I thought Edgar Martinez WAS dominant; he was absolutely one of the most feared hitters of his time.  

&lt;a href=&quot;http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8777793/real-problem-hall-fame-10-player-limit-votes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jim Caple posted a great HoF article here&lt;/a&gt;; one of the few pro Morris pieces i&#039;ve seen out there.  He says it like it is; he covered Morris, and holds to this day the opinions of those in the game at the time who &quot;valued him highly.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;feeling of dominance&#8221; is a very important one to me as well, and is the biggest reason I struggle with guys like Trammell and Biggio.  It just confirms to me that certain types of players need to be analyzed differently than others.  Middle Infielders just can&#8217;t be compared to big hulking first-baseman power hitters in terms of production.   I think relief pitchers are given too much credit, but they have their place.  But you&#8217;ve gotta be a darn good one (and Lee Smith was not).  Lastly if you&#8217;re going to let in RPs you have to consider guys who DH&#8217;d most of their career as well; you can&#8217;t make one pro-specialist argument for closers but then say that DHs &#8220;didn&#8217;t play the field so they don&#8217;t deserve as much credit.&#8221;  </p>
<p>For me, I thought Edgar Martinez WAS dominant; he was absolutely one of the most feared hitters of his time.  </p>
<p><a href="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8777793/real-problem-hall-fame-10-player-limit-votes" rel="nofollow">Jim Caple posted a great HoF article here</a>; one of the few pro Morris pieces i&#8217;ve seen out there.  He says it like it is; he covered Morris, and holds to this day the opinions of those in the game at the time who &#8220;valued him highly.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Wally</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7566</link>
		<dc:creator>Wally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>OK, here is my take.  I am not knocking anyone for PEDs (real or suspected), I value peak over longevity and start with a feeling of dominance and then do a sanity check on stats.  Ideally, I&#039;d vote for someone who was in the conversation for top 5 player in baseball for 4-5 years, and then had a similar number of very good years on top of that.

My ballot: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Raines, Bagwell, Piazza, mostly for your reasons above.  Sosa: I can&#039;t deny his production.  Piazza: I actually was looking for a reason not to include him, but the stats won me over.

others: Biggio is most notably absent, but when it came right down to it, I don&#039;t think I ever viewed him as a top 5 player in the league.  Seemed like more of an accumulator.  Edgar was similar: I thought he was an extremely good hitter, but maybe he is hurt by playing in Griffey&#039;s shadow.  He seemed like a good complementary piece.  Trammell is kind of the anti-Piazza, I felt like he was a top player and wanted to vote for him, but the stats just didn&#039;t back it up.  I also think there is a little bit of voter bias here: I saw trammell when I was a kid, and he had a real positive effect on me that continues to this day, and Biggio was the opposite.  He played his career while I was older, and I viewed him as good, not great.  Murphy had the peak years, but just not enough of them.  As for Morris and Schilling, I&#039;d put Schilling in before Morris, but both failed due to their competition.  That doesn&#039;t seem fair, but it is honest at least.  They just didn&#039;t seem of the caliber of the other guys on the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, here is my take.  I am not knocking anyone for PEDs (real or suspected), I value peak over longevity and start with a feeling of dominance and then do a sanity check on stats.  Ideally, I&#8217;d vote for someone who was in the conversation for top 5 player in baseball for 4-5 years, and then had a similar number of very good years on top of that.</p>
<p>My ballot: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Raines, Bagwell, Piazza, mostly for your reasons above.  Sosa: I can&#8217;t deny his production.  Piazza: I actually was looking for a reason not to include him, but the stats won me over.</p>
<p>others: Biggio is most notably absent, but when it came right down to it, I don&#8217;t think I ever viewed him as a top 5 player in the league.  Seemed like more of an accumulator.  Edgar was similar: I thought he was an extremely good hitter, but maybe he is hurt by playing in Griffey&#8217;s shadow.  He seemed like a good complementary piece.  Trammell is kind of the anti-Piazza, I felt like he was a top player and wanted to vote for him, but the stats just didn&#8217;t back it up.  I also think there is a little bit of voter bias here: I saw trammell when I was a kid, and he had a real positive effect on me that continues to this day, and Biggio was the opposite.  He played his career while I was older, and I viewed him as good, not great.  Murphy had the peak years, but just not enough of them.  As for Morris and Schilling, I&#8217;d put Schilling in before Morris, but both failed due to their competition.  That doesn&#8217;t seem fair, but it is honest at least.  They just didn&#8217;t seem of the caliber of the other guys on the list.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Boss</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7554</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Boss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 01:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352#comment-7554</guid>
		<description>HOF: i also think there&#039;s going to be a big veterans committee movement to work on the slew of important players from the 80s who have gotten short-changed.  

My 2 cents; I think the Hall is a museum, and If i&#039;m going to the museum of professional baseball then players who took steroids and succeeded are no less a big a part of the game than the pitchers who pitched in 1968, nor those who played on greenies all those years, nor those who hit in the .430s during the deadball era.  But that&#039;s not what most of the BBWAA writers think, so we&#039;ll be having this argument for the next decade.

Campinella; probably #4 for me ever.  MLB&#039;s Prime 9 ranked him 4th as well, behind (in order) Bench, Berra, Piazza.  Campinella was ahead of Rodriguez, Fisk and a few others guys.  I&#039;m a bit too young to have seen him play, but a 3-time MVP says enough for me.  I wouldn&#039;t be too upset if someone argued that he was #1 or #2; he was a great player.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HOF: i also think there&#8217;s going to be a big veterans committee movement to work on the slew of important players from the 80s who have gotten short-changed.  </p>
<p>My 2 cents; I think the Hall is a museum, and If i&#8217;m going to the museum of professional baseball then players who took steroids and succeeded are no less a big a part of the game than the pitchers who pitched in 1968, nor those who played on greenies all those years, nor those who hit in the .430s during the deadball era.  But that&#8217;s not what most of the BBWAA writers think, so we&#8217;ll be having this argument for the next decade.</p>
<p>Campinella; probably #4 for me ever.  MLB&#8217;s Prime 9 ranked him 4th as well, behind (in order) Bench, Berra, Piazza.  Campinella was ahead of Rodriguez, Fisk and a few others guys.  I&#8217;m a bit too young to have seen him play, but a 3-time MVP says enough for me.  I wouldn&#8217;t be too upset if someone argued that he was #1 or #2; he was a great player.</p>
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		<title>By: Tegwar</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7533</link>
		<dc:creator>Tegwar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 16:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352#comment-7533</guid>
		<description>Happy Holidays Todd, 

As I&#039;ve gotten older I&#039;ve gotten less strict about who I will let in to the HOF. I think it is because all the players being voted on now I actually saw them all play and I have a connection to them.

As for PED&#039;s in the HOF I would think sooner or later you are going to have to put some of them in, it all was sadly part of the game and almost everyone was complicit in it to some degree, although you may disagree. Also Clemens was never legally guilty of anything which complicates the issue.

Roy Campanella is missing from your list of great hitting catchers. Not to take anything away from Piazza for hitting or Berra, Bench, or I-Rod but there is a good chance that Campy might have been the best all around catcher ever or his name should be in the discussion. His playing time was short; he just barely meets the eligibility requirements of 10 seasons for the HOF, he didn’t come up until the year after Jackie Robinson and a car crash left him partial paralyze.  

I wish I was old enough to see him play both my father and aunt say they never saw a better all around catcher. His defense was second to none and he did get 3 MVP’s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy Holidays Todd, </p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve gotten older I&#8217;ve gotten less strict about who I will let in to the HOF. I think it is because all the players being voted on now I actually saw them all play and I have a connection to them.</p>
<p>As for PED&#8217;s in the HOF I would think sooner or later you are going to have to put some of them in, it all was sadly part of the game and almost everyone was complicit in it to some degree, although you may disagree. Also Clemens was never legally guilty of anything which complicates the issue.</p>
<p>Roy Campanella is missing from your list of great hitting catchers. Not to take anything away from Piazza for hitting or Berra, Bench, or I-Rod but there is a good chance that Campy might have been the best all around catcher ever or his name should be in the discussion. His playing time was short; he just barely meets the eligibility requirements of 10 seasons for the HOF, he didn’t come up until the year after Jackie Robinson and a car crash left him partial paralyze.  </p>
<p>I wish I was old enough to see him play both my father and aunt say they never saw a better all around catcher. His defense was second to none and he did get 3 MVP’s.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7517</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2012 03:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Happy holidays, Todd - and thanks for keeping the posts coming :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy holidays, Todd &#8211; and thanks for keeping the posts coming <img src='http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Todd Boss</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7507</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Boss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh duh.  I cut and pasted from last year&#039;s post.  I&#039;ll correct it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh duh.  I cut and pasted from last year&#8217;s post.  I&#8217;ll correct it.</p>
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		<title>By: Wally</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7504</link>
		<dc:creator>Wally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Although I think Larkin made it last year, so you are &#039;safe&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I think Larkin made it last year, so you are &#8217;safe&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Wally</title>
		<link>http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5352&#038;cpage=1#comment-7503</link>
		<dc:creator>Wally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Todd - Happy Holidays, and thanks for all your excellent posts.  I&#039;ll go through this one when the holiday crunch lessens!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd &#8211; Happy Holidays, and thanks for all your excellent posts.  I&#8217;ll go through this one when the holiday crunch lessens!</p>
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