{"id":10768,"date":"2015-06-29T09:26:15","date_gmt":"2015-06-29T13:26:15","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/?p=10768"},"modified":"2018-06-04T15:06:05","modified_gmt":"2018-06-04T19:06:05","slug":"player-killers-what-college-programs-are-known-for-hurting-pro-prospects","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/?p=10768","title":{"rendered":"Player Killers: what college programs are known for hurting pro prospects?"},"content":{"rendered":"<div id=\"attachment_2173\" style=\"width: 310px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/08\/purke_matt_tcu-AP-PhotoNati-Harnik.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-2173\" class=\"size-full wp-image-2173\" src=\"http:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2011\/08\/purke_matt_tcu-AP-PhotoNati-Harnik.jpg\" alt=\"Did TCU destroy Purke's arm? Photo AP\/Nati Harnik\" width=\"300\" height=\"200\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-2173\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Did TCU destroy Purke&#8217;s arm? Photo AP\/Nati Harnik<\/p><\/div>\n<p>Player Killers. \u00a0Arm Shredders. \u00a0Arm Abusers. \u00a0There&#8217;s more than a few college coaches\/programs out there who are known for it.<\/p>\n<p>Its always dangerous to make a blanket statement in baseball.\u00a0 If I say that &#8220;CollegeX is known for killing pitcher arms&#8221; then there&#8217;ll immediately be people who cite players who are exceptions to such a rule.<\/p>\n<p>Nonetheless, while reading a ton of prospect-driven content on the web over the years, some common themes pop up.\u00a0 And the crux of it is this: there are some college baseball programs out there that are accused of hurting their players&#8217; professional prospects and draft statuses by virtue of the misguided or (in some cases) outdated coaching and usage of players.<\/p>\n<p>Grantland&#8217;s <strong>Michael Baumann<\/strong> wrote an <a href=\"http:\/\/grantland.com\/the-triangle\/how-concern-over-pitcher-usage-can-actually-give-college-coaches-a-recruiting-edge\/\">excellent article summarizing<\/a> some of the &#8220;danger programs&#8221; in 2013, citing work done by <strong>Rany Jazayerli<\/strong> and Baseball Prospectus.\u00a0 Some of this also comes from <strong>Keith Law<\/strong>&#8216;s freely offered opinions on the topic, and he offers up plenty of supporting evidence in his columns and chats. \u00a0Some of these are &#8220;arm shredder&#8221; programs, others are places that are thought to change player&#8217;s swings.<\/p>\n<p>Here&#8217;s some trouble-maker programs (and by &#8220;programs&#8221; often times by implication you&#8217;re blaming the head coach as the decision maker):<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>Stanford<\/strong><\/span>: Law calls it the &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/insider.espn.go.com\/blog\/keith-law\/insider\/post?id=3919\">Stanford Swing<\/a>.&#8221;\u00a0 <a href=\"http:\/\/espn.go.com\/sportsnation\/chat\/_\/id\/51780\/mlb-insider-keith-law\">Per Law<\/a>, Stanford coaches emphasize going away, altering hitters&#8217; swings to de-emphasize pull hitting, to the point apparently where players are outright benched for pulling the ball.\u00a0 Now, there&#8217;s quite a few <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseball-reference.com\/schools\/index.cgi?key_school=b6ff1406\">Stanford grads<\/a> in the Majors right now, and the\u00a0 hitters listed aren&#8217;t exactly an honor roll of top-hitting guys.\u00a0 <strong>Jed Lowrie<\/strong> might be the best active hitter.\u00a0 The career Stanford grad homer leader is the recently retired <strong>Carlos Quentin<\/strong>, out of baseball at 32.\u00a0 So maybe there&#8217;s something to it.<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>TCU<\/strong><\/span>: <strong>Jim Schlossnagle<\/strong> is not well known for its <a href=\"http:\/\/espn.go.com\/sportsnation\/chat\/_\/id\/51780\/mlb-insider-keith-law\">handling of pitchers<\/a>.\u00a0 The Nats are well aware of this, having drafted damaged goods in <strong>Matthew Purke<\/strong>, who was 15-0 as a freshman and basically hasn&#8217;t been the same since.<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>Rice&#8217;s <span style=\"color: #000000;\">Wayne Graham<\/span><\/strong><\/span>: Law has provided an <a href=\"http:\/\/insider.espn.go.com\/blog\/keith-law\/insider\/post?id=3919\">exhaustive list of pitchers<\/a> who he accuses the Rice coaches of blatantly over-working and has flat out suggested that pitchers considering attending Rice <a href=\"http:\/\/espn.go.com\/sportsnation\/chat\/_\/id\/51780\/mlb-insider-keith-law\">should go elsewhere<\/a>.\u00a0 In fact, the most blatant example of this was the 2004 draft: Rice had three starters drafted in the first 8 picks (<strong>Philip Humber<\/strong>, <strong>Jeff Niemann<\/strong>, and <strong>Wade Townsend<\/strong>) and <a href=\"http:\/\/grantland.com\/the-triangle\/how-concern-over-pitcher-usage-can-actually-give-college-coaches-a-recruiting-edge\/\">ALL three of them suffered shoulder injuries<\/a> soon there after.<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>UNC<\/strong><\/span>&#8216;s <strong>Mike Fox <\/strong>so over-used a reliever a few years back that the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2013\/06\/21\/sports\/baseball\/a-top-pitchers-heavy-workload-comes-under-scrutiny.html?_r=1\">New York Times<\/a> of all papers wrote about it.\u00a0 And he had <strong>Matt Harvey<\/strong>, don&#8217;t forget, allowing Harvey to throw an astounding <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseballamerica.net\/college\/with-college-pitch-counts-times-are-changing\/\">157 pitches in a 2010 outing<\/a> and 5 other instances of 120+ pitches.\u00a0 Is it a coincidence that Harvey blew out his UCL just a couple years later? \u00a0Causation or Correlation?<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>South Carolina<\/strong><\/span>&#8216;s <strong>Ray Tanner<\/strong>: won back to back CWS&#8217;s &#8230; on the <a href=\"http:\/\/grantland.com\/the-triangle\/how-concern-over-pitcher-usage-can-actually-give-college-coaches-a-recruiting-edge\/\">backs of his pitching staff<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>Texas<\/strong><\/span>&#8216; legendary coach <strong>Augie Garrido<\/strong> already had a reputation for overuse before the infamous <a href=\"http:\/\/blog.al.com\/birmingham-news-sports\/2009\/06\/hot_corner_college_pitchers_we.html\">Texas-Boston College regional game in June of 2009<\/a>.\u00a0\u00a0 Texas&#8217; <strong>Austin Wood<\/strong>, a reliever, came out of the bullpen to throw 13 innings and 169 pitches in the 25-inning game.\u00a0 Garrido really took a lot of heat for that &#8230; but his BC counterpart might have only been slightly less culpable.\u00a0 BC threw its own guy <strong>Mike Belfiore<\/strong> for 129 pitches and 9 2\/3 innings.\u00a0 In Wood&#8217;s case, it was made even worse by the fact that he had thrown two innings *the day before.*\u00a0 It is no surprise to report that Wood <a href=\"http:\/\/www.mysanantonio.com\/sports\/college_sports\/longhorns\/article\/Former-UT-pitcher-says-moment-worth-the-pain-1416327.php\">had to undergo Shoulder Surgery<\/a> the next season, nor is it a surprise that the crusty Garrido disclaimed any responsibility for the injury by Wood&#8217;s usage in that game.\u00a0 Belfiore, it should be noted, has <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseballprospectus.com\/card\/card.php?id=59318\">never shown any evidence of injury<\/a>, was a <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseball-reference.com\/minors\/player.cgi?id=belfio001mic\">1st round draft pick<\/a> just prior to his appearance, and looks like a 4-A pitcher who is now in the Detroit organization but who had a cup of coffee in 2013.\u00a0 Perhaps its because Belfiore was a starter and basically threw a start instead of Wood, who was clearly a reliever.<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>UCLA<\/strong><\/span>: Look at the usage in college for guys like\u00a0<strong>Trevor Bauer<\/strong> and\u00a0<strong>Canning Griffith<\/strong>; is it any shock that these guys end up with injuries?<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>Notre Dame<\/strong><\/span>: Not a good track record (per Keith Law) of developing or protecting pitchers.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Pitch count guidelines: there&#8217;s research out there that basically shows that anything above 120 pitches in an outing is an indicator of fatigue-induced regression their next time out, and 130+ pitch outings might as well be prescriptions for injury.<\/p>\n<p>Times have changed: no longer are A-1 pitching prospects left in games to rack up ridiculous pitch counts.\u00a0 <strong>Mark Prior<\/strong> had at least <a href=\"http:\/\/deadspin.com\/5277374\/austin-wood-and-the-pitch-count-question\">6 starts the year he was drafted<\/a> where he threw 120-130+ pitches.\u00a0 <strong>Ben McDonald<\/strong> was famously started in back to back CWS games, getting clobbered in the second game &#8230; all while having *already* been drafted by the Baltimore Orioles, who must have been screaming at the television set watching what was\u00a0 unfolding as <a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Skip_Bertman\">legendary LSU coach<\/a> <strong>Skip Bertman<\/strong> set about destroying the best arm in the nation.<\/p>\n<p>But then again, the more things change, the more they stay the same.\u00a0 <span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>NC State<\/strong><\/span>, in a mad dash to make the post-season in 2014, let their Ace starter <strong>Carlos Rodon<\/strong> throw 120+ pitches <a href=\"http:\/\/www.boydsworld.com\/data\/pitchcount.html\">seven times<\/a>.\u00a0 Rodon&#8217;s usage was also <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseballamerica.net\/college\/with-college-pitch-counts-times-are-changing\/\">discussed in Baseball America<\/a>.\u00a0 Did that lead to Rodon&#8217;s diminished stuff and subsequent drop in the 2013 draft?\u00a0 Maybe.\u00a0 I&#8217;m sure the White Sox are ok with it, since he doesn&#8217;t seem to have suffered any ill effects and is in their rotation 2 years later.\u00a0 <strong>Trevor Bauer<\/strong>, while at UCLA<strong>, <\/strong>*averaged* more than 120 pitches an outing the year he was drafted &#8230; but he seems like such an outlier because of his warm-up technique (which involves extreme long toss and clearly has built up his shoulder strength over the years).\u00a0 Are NC State and UCLA trouble-programs?\u00a0 I havn&#8217;t heard much since so i&#8217;m leaving them off for now.<\/p>\n<p>Did I miss anyone?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Post Publishing update<\/strong>: we&#8217;re starting to hear more and more about <span style=\"color: #ff0000;\"><strong>UVA&#8217;s<\/strong> <\/span>Pitching program being problematic; \u00a0Per <a href=\"https:\/\/baseballdraftreport.com\/2017\/04\/20\/2017-mlb-draft-report-virginia\/\">baseballdraftreport.com<\/a>, only 3 of the 22 UVA pitchers drafted since 2009 have even made it to the majors, and the career UVA bWAR leader among all UVA players is\u00a0a lefty reliever in <strong>Javier Lopez<\/strong>. \u00a0UVA has had <a href=\"http:\/\/www.baseball-reference.com\/schools\/index.cgi?key_school=bd7d8277\">42 players reach the majors<\/a>\u00a0and is one of the leading colleges for active players as we speak, but has had an awful track record of arms drafted recently. \u00a0Just take a look at some of the recent top-end UVA arms drafted (from recent to older):<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Conner Jones<\/strong>: 1st round talent out of HS, slipped to 2nd round in 2016 thanks to regression during college career but no injury issues thus far in pro career.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Nathan Kirby<\/strong>: supp-1st rounder in 2015: after just 5 pro games he needed Tommy John. \u00a0Missed all of 2016 with injury, still not on an active roster as of Apr 2017.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Josh Sborz<\/strong>; supp-2nd rounder in 2015: 2016 High-A all-star and 2017 NRI to Dodgers MLB camp. \u00a0Starting in AA. \u00a0One minor D\/L trip. \u00a0Was UVA&#8217;s closer\/long reliever but starting in pro ball.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Brandon Waddell<\/strong>: 5th rounder in 2015: quickly pitched his way to AA, where he spent most of 2016, suffered a forearm strain early in 2017.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Nick Howard:\u00a0<\/strong>1st rounder in 2014, missed half of 2015 and 2016 with shoulder injuries, still in XST to start 2017.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Artie Lewicki:\u00a0<\/strong>8th rounder\/senior sign in 2014: missed parts of 2014 and 2016 on the D\/L but active and in AA in 2017.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Whit Mayberry<\/strong>: 21st rounder in 2014, already released by his drafting team (Detroit) and signed as a MLFA by Washington for 2017; currently in High-A. \u00a0No injuries.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Kyle Crockett<\/strong>: 4th rounder in 2013, raced through the majors and debuted for Cleveland in May 2014. \u00a0No injuries.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Scott Silverstein<\/strong>: 25th rounder in 2013, hurt in May 2015 and released after that season.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Branden Kline<\/strong>: 2nd rounder in 2012, has been on the D\/L since May of 2015.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Danny Hultzen<\/strong>: #2 overall pick in 2011: massive shoulder issues, out of the game after throwing just 169 minor league innings in 6 pro seasons.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Will Roberts<\/strong>: 5th rounder in 2011, has had a long minor league career; in AAA to start 2017.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Tyler Wilson<\/strong>, 10th rounder in 2011, is currently Baltimore&#8217;s #5 starter.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>So a couple of high profile injuries, but also some successes. \u00a0I suppose the issues that their marquee 1st rounders has led to this reputation.<\/p>\n<p>2018 update:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Florida State let their starter (already having thrown 108 pitches) return to a game after a rain delay<\/li>\n<li>UConn getting a bad rap.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Player Killers. \u00a0Arm Shredders. \u00a0Arm Abusers. \u00a0There&#8217;s more than a few college coaches\/programs out there who are known for it. Its always dangerous to make a blanket statement in baseball.\u00a0 If I say that &#8220;CollegeX is known for killing pitcher arms&#8221; then there&#8217;ll immediately be people who cite players who are exceptions to such a [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[7,9],"tags":[2870,2871,2518,497,1835,1826,237,2865,110,613,1666,166,2864,2872,2868,1919,1680,2869,2873,1056,2867,2866],"class_list":["post-10768","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-college","category-draft","tag-augie-garrido","tag-austin-wood","tag-ben-mcdonald","tag-carlos-quenton","tag-carlos-rodon","tag-jed-lowrie","tag-jeff-niemann","tag-jim-schlossnagle","tag-keith-law","tag-mark-prior","tag-matt-harvey","tag-matthew-purke","tag-michael-baumann","tag-mike-belfiore","tag-mike-fox","tag-philip-humber","tag-rany-jazayerli","tag-ray-tanner","tag-skip-bertman","tag-trevor-bauer","tag-wade-townsend","tag-wayne-graham"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10768","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=10768"}],"version-history":[{"count":14,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10768\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":15010,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10768\/revisions\/15010"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=10768"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=10768"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.nationalsarmrace.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=10768"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}